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Hackin' Harri Hursti a hit in Riverside County, California | 250-530 Practice Questions and Dumps

READER feedback ON"Hackin' Harri Hursti successful in Riverside County, California"(forty seven Responses thus far...)

remark #1 [Permalink]... GWN referred to on 4/1/2007 @ 7:35 pm PT...

exquisite work by using that "l. a.-based mostly blogger"!

remark #2 [Permalink]... leftisbest pointed out on four/1/2007 @ 8:13 pm PT...

here is becoming a watershed moment - a tipping aspect - even the most dense will should see that there's a better way - and you have got proven that there are those available with the conmmon experience and lack of vested pastime to display it to this nation.

thanks Brad and Harri - and a lot of, many others who've worked tirelessly on this concern.

remark #3 [Permalink]... Bev Harris mentioned on 4/1/2007 @ 9:fifty one pm PT...

one other five-star story, Brad. but greater than a narrative, since you and Tom Courbat have been making it right into a happening. it will be extraordinary to get Holt and Hursti together for a face to face.

comment #four [Permalink]... abacus talked about on 4/1/2007 @ 9:59 pm PT...

I actually have the utmost admire for each Brad and Harri and the in fact exquisite work they've completed. however is my beat-up old head slipping?

"advocates digital optically-scanned paper ballots --- the place the photo of the scan can then be made attainable to all on the information superhighway --- because the most comfortable and most clear system of voting for the classification of elections we've in these united states."

What did he mean? On the face of it this would not make experience. How can statistics on the internet be at ease? perhaps, if covered via cryptographic safety? however it really is the very opposite of transparency. handiest people like Rivest of MIT can validate such systems; and although i might could possibly trust him I cannot believe of many others. and naturally I do not have to have faith anyone. These cryptographic methods are the very opposite of clear.

now not to point out that there are executive corporations with galactic-degree computing vigor which could fox the cryptography.

One different point: "he feels the thousands of ballots patterns and pages and pages of candidates and propositions would probably make all HCPB unwieldy here."

A effective point. but any individual seriously advocating HCPB has to have confronted this. To exchange ability a large overhaul of law and finding the center and components to combat election officers, purchased-off politicians, makers in any variety of states - no longer to point out in counties nationwide...

but it surely should be more correct, less costly and absolutely transparent...

could be happy to get some support

comment #5 [Permalink]... phil pointed out on 4/1/2007 @ 10:28 pm PT...

abacus, i am with you there. NO ELECTRONICS will also be relied on for elections or vote casting device. it's simply too easy to have the election fully cracked/hacked (however you friggin outline it!) from the starting.

I well-nigh had it with all these people.

If or not it's so damned relaxed then why not compare ALL paper votes once towards all machines once?

as an alternative every person appears to are looking to microwave their food. Boy your bound going to get decent fitness that approach eh?

comment #6 [Permalink]... Paul Lehto mentioned on four/1/2007 @ eleven:18 pm PT...

this text omits the hand counted paper pollrandom audits of 1 race per polling vicinity that Hursti referred to as for. For 11/06 that might imply 1 of 30 in Riverside County, or 3.33% audit on normal. See http://www.smartvoter.or...06/11/07/ca/rv/demo.html

despite the fact, a 3% audit misses many frauds, according to the statistical audit reviews on the Holt invoice, which has audits of three% to 10%. check those reports out to make certain, but it really is what I do not forget.

because of the prior discussion of this random HCPB audit of 1 race per polling region, the omission of the hand counts from the description of Hursti's inspiration above is unfortunate. Hand counts are a vital a part of the proposed device. The article states only that:

Hursti advocates digital optically-scanned paper ballots --- the place the image of the scan can then be made obtainable to all on the cyber web --- because the most secure and most transparent components of vote casting for the classification of elections they have in these u.s..

This besides the fact that children, does not even remotely come close to calling out even a sketch of an normal vote casting system that will also be evaluated for no matter if or not they should be enthusiastic about it. Hursti himself has provided extra detail, but that has to be within the article. I understand that a thought could be forthcoming, however the bandwagon is already fired up and the song is enjoying, and that should still be placed on cling except the records are in.

If the pollimages are to be of any use to citizens at all, they're through a ways surely to be hand counted, just like the other audits in precinct are. So really if the residents do a great job on the ballot images, they're going to finally hand count number one hundred% of the ballots as a examine against the key opscan counts.

but now enters the legal equipment. The govt has already posted the "relevant" consequences on election nighttime, an unofficial citizens neighborhood aspects to a freaking mountain of ballot images and claims in any other case. they're, of direction, routinely disregarded.

We are becoming no the place. Getting the tips is simply the 1st step. They already have audits from San Diego county that are clearly flawed. Nothing is executed.

with a bit of luck the proposal will consist of rock solid prison steps in order that pollimages can circulate the "so what" look at various, and not simply quantity to a big doc dump that nobody basically has the materials to count number or investigate. i.e., so what if the ballot images appear to be way off? WHOSE army OR military OF lawyers OR WHAT process WILL drive a transformation?

after all, the mantra is that they cannot do HCPB county vast since it's too challenging to rent or recruit volunteers. but if they just submit the pollimages on the internet in an incredible document dump, they will have carried out "transparency" by the use of opaque document dumps. Huh?

if the pollimages are truly going to be checked via citizens WHY now not allow them to investigate THEM earlier than the primary COUNTS ARE certified AND earlier than THE baby-kisser IS SWORN IN?

Has anybody learned anything else from CA50 yet? Getting the information is a primary step, however most effective a tiny first step to altering government action.

This can be the start of a public vetting system for this concept, however they can want in put from stats specialists, attorneys, and election bureaucracy experts (which some activists have develop into)

comment #7 [Permalink]... Brad Friedman referred to on four/1/2007 @ eleven:28 pm PT...

Abacus (#4) requested about the references to Hursti's advice of digital picture optically-scanned ballots -

What did he mean? On the face of it this doesn't make experience. How can statistics on the information superhighway be cozy? possibly, if protected via cryptographic security? but it really is the very contrary of transparency. only americans like Rivest of MIT can validate such programs; and though i'd could possibly have confidence him I cannot consider of many others. and of course I wouldn't have to believe anyone. These cryptographic programs are the very contrary of transparent.

It seems you might also have misunderstood his advice. i could take the blame if it wasn't explained certainly within the story.

The posting of the ballot images on the internet is barely for transparency sake. In different words, the ballots are nevertheless tabulated in the neighborhood, during this case, on the precinct by means of the digital photo op-scan. The consequences from that tabulation would then be posted immediately, on paper at the precinct, before the ballots are then taken returned to the county headquarters.

There would still need to be applicable audits in region to check the accuracy of those precinct based op-scan counts. (And a guideline has come up concerning the full hand-count of a single, randomly selected race at every precinct earlier than the ballots go lower back to headquarters, in coordination with this tabulation system. i am making an attempt to look into that greater to be taught if it would present any classification of scientific sure bet of the accuracy of results, however it would seem, on the surface anyway, to be a potentially decent verify towards dishonest)

ultimately then, the ballot images --- which were scanned on the precinct --- would be posted online for the public to check up on on the web. They could count them themselves as they wish, and they may be compared to the genuine paper ballots at any time.

it be truly an exceedingly transparent scheme, due to the fact no public information requests or entry would be required to examine the legit count towards these posted pollimages. In theory, anyway.

As smartly, Hursti explained to me how the digital image op-scan gadget is advanced in a protection way to the optical mark awareness type of op-scan. more convenient to are attempting and comfy, in spite of everything, for a number of reasons.

notwithstanding I understood, and concurred with his reason for this (as a programmer myself), it might require far too a lot geek-communicate to get into the particulars about at this time. i could try to cover it within the no longer-too-distant future, despite the fact.

Hope that clears up your questions for the moment, in any case, Abacus.

comment #8 [Permalink]... Brad Friedman talked about on 4/1/2007 @ eleven:forty four pm PT...

Replying to Paul Lehto (#6) who observed:

this article omits the hand counted paper pollrandom audits of one race per polling region that Hursti referred to as for. ... the omission of the hand counts from the outline of Hursti's inspiration above is unfortunate. Hand counts are a crucial a part of the proposed gadget.

Nothing turned into "omitted" from the article in that regard, as a result of, as i mentioned in e-mail to you, Paul, it didn't come up all the way through my many hours of dialog with Hursti. I don't question your assertion that Hursti is in assist of this sort of counting scheme, but considering that he didn't inform me about it, I could not file it.

I did, despite the fact, allude to it in my remark above, because you (and Tom Courbat) have outlined it to me by way of e-mail in view that my meeting with Hursti. but simply to be clear, Hursti didn't "demand" that all through their discussions, so it wasn't "left out" within the article. It wasn't there to report on in the first region.

Hope that clears up the affect that might have gleaned by way of some after studying your remark that i used to be making an attempt to "miss" some part of Hursti's suggestion. For the record, the concept of counting one random race at each precinct sounds fantastic to me (so does counting *all* of the races at each and every precinct!), however this is not what this article become about, nor changed into it whatever I might document on, considering Hursti failed to point out it.

Hope that clarifies.

remark #9 [Permalink]... historic noted on 4/2/2007 @ 5:24 am PT...

as far as getting Holt and Hursti collectively, Holt as a rocket scientist should understand that in case you are attempting to clear up a problem you employ the proper expert no remember where they're from. So Congressman Holt, if you definitely do wish to resolve their election issues, PLEASE take skills of this chance to talk with Hursti!The isn't any time left for economic-driven half measures for their elections, TOO MANY people ARE ALREADY useless!

thank you Brad and everyone widely used and unknown who've taken action to comfortable verifiable elections!

remark #10 [Permalink]... Dredd referred to on 4/2/2007 @ 6:forty am PT...

i realized that Brad outlined:

despite the fact Hursti traveled all the way from Finland, Stone and every different member of the Riverside County Board of Supervisors had been interestingly too busy to make it up the road to meet Hursti and take heed to his presentation...

They appear to have diverse layers of knee-jerk accountability avoidance. Its a denial thang ... like fact Out, Kos, and Huffpo denying height oil after which no longer denying it.

remark #eleven [Permalink]... historical noted on 4/2/2007 @ 6:50 am PT...

remark #12 [Permalink]... historic observed on 4/2/2007 @ 7:22 am PT...

first rate articles DREDD! i was talking to a pal of mine over the weekend who works at a microbiology lab that produces industrial use microbes. She told me they simply had a breakthrough with 3 symbotic micro organism that can create pure ethanol! I certain hope this gets public before some power manipulating business can purchase it as much as proceed manipulating oil expenses, just like the energy amplifying gadget (they categorized it as a cold fusion device for lack of being in a position to clarify it) the retired dow chemist's gadget looks to have long gone.

comment #13 [Permalink]... historic pointed out on 4/2/2007 @ 7:39 am PT...

I certain wish someone might clarify to me why korporations are legally allowed during this country to purchase up patents, maintaining them off the market, that are vital to their countrywide safety!

remark #14 [Permalink]... Paul Lehto noted on 4/2/2007 @ 9:29 am PT...

involving Brad's comment here: (remark #6):

Thanks for recognizing that you simply had note by way of Tom Courbat's e mail of the hand counting element of Hursti's concept. Tom, at the least as of 11-18-06 changed into writing in want of a hundred% HCPB. i'm the first to admit however that I don't locate 100% HCPB to be sufficiently descriptive of a balloting gadget inspiration to judge it, considering you may may one hundred% HCPB in secret and that might be unacceptable. For the checklist, i am a "civil rights" or "voting rights" or "democracy rights" recommend, and consider that they have to verify each of their rights and ideas against every voting gadget to look if they measure up, of path after we've the statistics on stated gadget.

Brad, you of path be aware of that in the ultimate 24-36 hours they went round and circular on the CA50 list in part without delay on the situation of you describing Hursti as providing an "opscan" notion and failing to mention the critical HAND count number verify, when definitely if Tom Courbat's CA50 submit reply to you turned into suitable (and he's within the most desirable position to understand Hursti's place at this aspect having been his host at Riverside) then HCPB isn't simplest an incredible aspect of the idea, the gadget if it operated at an incredible degree would or fairly probably might outcome in one hundred% HCPB via publishing ballot images, even though late in the video game in the feel of being after the all-vital first count number, which is still a secret opscan count number except for any random hand audits at the precinct stage. in spite of the fact that the opscan is open source, no one has the slightest idea what the authentic count number is on any race now not subject to a hand audit, it's a religion based outcomes.

one of the most MANY criminal DEFINITIONS OF FRAUD: decide C.J. Cardozo held in Ultramares Corp. v Touche, 225 N.Y. 170, 179 (1931): "Fraud contains the pretense of potential when talents there is none." To me, this might basically encompass elections officials "certifying" as a "genuine count" an opscan secret count number when basically they don't have any personal capabilities that it is relevant, and all of the exams on earth do not inform us how the (rigged) computer carried out on election day, the most effective day when any rigger cares to educate it to do creative accounting.

(however query: if they might harness that plenty volunteer vigour, both to count pollimages OR to audit "all" races on election nighttime, why is it asserted through Brad and others that they can't get the volunteers to do that earlier than the "winner" and "sore loser" are locked in? Is it only the difficulty of getting them to the polls to do HCPB work? however don't most go to the polls to VOTE? Can a few of them dangle round for a couple of hours more?)

in any case, even if or now not this HCPB element became "neglected" (my common observe option) or now not, it was my understanding in journalism that clear word of an important truth to a journalist would result in an responsibility to observe up and confirm or deny that fact, or at the least to factor to a hole within the story showing the existence of alternative particulars not yet proven. but for affirmation, Tom Courbat appears to be a authentic source in the rest of the story, so in case you couldn't reach Hursti no person would seemingly object if you had quoted Tom Courbat on the HCPB audit requirement.

The successful Riverside visit of Hursti is in marked contrast to bradblog's recommended method on the published (and special) HR 811 Holt bill when released in its HR 811 edition. at the moment, bradblog changed into a strong voice for withholding all judgment unless all of the facts have been in and particularly insisting that all of us study THE invoice earlier than denouncing it. although I don't feel an individual already satisfied that paper path/audit "options" are wrong always should read the bill in any respect, that turned into on the other hand an admirable dedication to objectivity and analysis.

Yet right here related to this non-Holt balloting equipment idea, in comment six you pronounce "for the list" that "counting one random race at every precinct sounds top notch to me... (so does counting *all* of the races at each and every precinct!)..." I note your avoidance or non-use always of the term "hand counting" and that i also be aware that in accordance with your quoted parenthetical simply above, you also (in direct impact) pronounce for the checklist your aid for one hundred% ("*all* of the races at each and every precinct") hand counted paper ballots as an election evening "audit" just before unencumber of results.

I just ask yourself (1) why they don't have the identical agnosticism here unless now they have all study and studied the concept, as with Holt, and (2) I extra ask yourself at your skill to pronounce your self supportive of either 1 election evening HCPB audit per polling place (which may well be lower than 3% basic audit with Holt offering a 3% to 10% audit) or alternatively even a 100% election nighttime HCPB "audit" which is effortlessly the identical as HCPB you regard as politically unviable, and eventually (three) i ponder where this bandwagon goes?

To discover, they will have to get the statistics, and look at the thought.

A shared Finnish ancestry make me as anxious as anyone to admire Harri Hursti (perhaps overly so, I wrote an admiring article about him for the Finnish American Reporter, which is not on-line however a reference to it will also be discovered at ). having said that, Hursti is a laptop and desktop protection skilled simplest, no longer a information, human factors, American politics, paperwork, elections or prison expert. neither is he, though he is neatly down the road to becoming so, an authority in electronic voting gadget design, transparency policy, or democratic requirements and values.

Yet the entire factor of inserting ballot images on the web (permitting citizens handy count from domestic) would be shot to hell on the prison degree in the event that they don't seem to be "ballots of list." And Brad says that they aren't, they are just pictures that do not have that stage of identified reliability on the legal degree. If a count of the pollimages can not prove anything legally, then dumping these images on the information superhighway is hardly clear.

but as right now described, this notion features secret vote counting on the primary count and the pollimages can not LEGALLY be used to impeach or overcome the legit ballots in the event that they aren't "ballots of record" (we're all standard with Holt language during this regard, as a result understand this is an issue). As such, it fails to provide the public's correct to meaningful oversight - and thus fails the democracy examine and the transparency check.

evaluate: With 100% HCPB, it is asserted that some americans do not or might no longer have faith it (?) yet with 100% secret vote counts, NO RATIONAL adult has any foundation for trust in any respect, a a lot better case, and the opscans right here still violate democratic rights, a quite severe count.

examine: With a hundred% HCPB it is said they can't get satisfactory pollworkers, yet an implied promoting aspect of ballot images is that americans WILL count, despite the fact notwithstanding they do, right out of the gate and devoid of even a battle and through THEIR own inspiration they can be sure that the pictures are not ballots of list, making the pollimage dump a doubtlessly misleading promoting aspect.

compare: they are able to apparently get genuine enthusiastic about pollimages that don't count and preserving secret first counts, on condition that its techno-oriented as a result of individuals still fall for that even though it violates baseline democratic concepts by means of keeping secret first counts, AND YET they can not even be stricken to perform or advocate one of the vital lamer bureaucratic opt outs of a BLUE RIBBON commission to study how they might get extra pollworkers.

most likely, just because the right to trial by using jury would fail with out jury summonses, most likely having representative citizens on the polls could require pollworking summonses, the correct to vote "only" being the correct that protects all other rights.

If a summons may ever be justified, it's justified right here, and that could eliminate Hursti's assumption that they can not get satisfactory volunteers right here.

My God, it sure looks value a blue ribbon fee to me, before they all sign on to secret opscan counts and ballot image dumps that might not work in courtroom. I completely reject the conception that given all the troopers and activists who have died for democracy, that this technology they are in will no longer even work for it, a single night a 12 months. They need to re-assess their assumptions right here concerning the capability to get americans to work for democracy one evening every (say) 5 years or so, even given liberal excuses for lack of baby care, and so on.

comment #15 [Permalink]... massive dan talked about on 4/2/2007 @ 10:18 am PT...

He hacks the DRE's,all day long.while the entire 'lection 'fficials are singin' their music.

all of the lobbyists,on ok-street.Hate to hear Harri go "Cheat Cheat Cheat"

....Hackin' Harri, Cheat, cheat-tle-dee-deet.......Hackin' Harri, Cheat, cheat-tle-dee-deet...

(sing to the tune of "Rockin' Robin"...)

remark #16 [Permalink]... MarkH noted on 4/2/2007 @ 10:forty five am PT...

I agree there are a few unique separate steps which ought to be nailed down tight: guaranteeing individuals don't register and vote in quite a few precincts (a la Coulter), validating voters at the polls, ballot presentation, candidate option, recording the vote, casting the ballot, counting the ballot, posting effects, polltracking and storage, audit trail(s), and many others. or not it's gonna take lots of work to get it right and to fulfill a lot of people after the junk we've long past in the course of the ultimate eight or so years.

comment #17 [Permalink]... Sherry Healy spoke of on four/2/2007 @ 12:06 pm PT...

Harri Hursti is surely a hero for their cause, however I do not see how viewing ballots on the web could prove anything else, for here rationale:

with out a 10% audit of PAPER on the PRECINCT, there is no method to be certain that the ballot cast is indeed the ballot tabulated; or for that count number, the ballot displayed on the internet.

comment #18 [Permalink]... Laura mentioned on 4/2/2007 @ 12:44 pm PT...

just my two cents... I worked on the polls in November. I had to be there at 5:30 AM, since i used to be the handiest Democratic choose I needed to power to the precinct headquarters with the ballots on the end of the day. I got domestic after 9:00 PM at nighttime. i used to be the youngest decide at my polling vicinity(forty nine). The individuals I labored the polls with had been adament about now not counting the votes by using hand. They talked about it might be too an awful lot work on exact of their long day. I talked with many individuals that day concerning the movie Hacking Democracy and other articles within the news in regards to the main issue with Dres and Opscans. americans are aware, they simply don't know how they are able to affect alternate. I believe Harry about now not adequate americans inclined to HANDCOUNT the ballots(at the least that I may see). on the grounds that they had been brief a Democratic decide they asked people who came to vote if they had been willing to be a judge for the day everyone they requested stated no. i was so excited to be a judge and turned into operating on an adrenaline rush, i might have been willing to handcount however i was exhausted by the time I bought home. They had an ok turnout however no longer what i would have preferred to see. How will they get individuals to volunteer to count when they won't even end up to vote?

remark #19 [Permalink]... Brad Friedman noted on 4/2/2007 @ 12:55 pm PT...

Paul Lehto (#14) continues to insinuate some thing nefarious afoot...

Brad, you of course be aware of that within the ultimate 24-36 hours they went circular and circular on the CA50 list partially at once on the difficulty of you describing Hursti as providing an "opscan" notion and failing to mention the important HAND count check, when in reality if Tom Courbat's CA50 publish reply to you became relevant (and he is within the surest place to grasp Hursti's position at this point having been his host at Riverside)

it might be much favored in case you stopped insinuating anything nefarious here and/or in any other case ceased deceptive individuals about what I have and have not spoke of and what are and are not the information.

As I explained in e mail, Hursti never outlined the hand count audit to me all through their 6 or 7 hours of discussions on Friday nighttime. additional, after you and Tom had outlined that part of the counting scheme by the use of e-mail, i used to be in a position to communicate to Tom (notwithstanding now not Hursti) who observed that it turned into he that had asked Hursti about that additional element of counting one randomly chosen race by means of hand at every precinct.

even if that is satisfactory sufficient to trap most of the fraud, I don't know. i'm making an attempt to be taught. whether or not that became a part of Hursti's own information, or fairly something that he agree can be a good suggestion, I can not tell you.

therefore: I can not and might not report what I don't know to be the records. i will be able to and may report what I DO be aware of to be the information, as I mentioned within the usual story.

why is it asserted with the aid of Brad and others that they can't get the volunteers to try this before the "winner" and "sore loser" are locked in?

I actually have in no way made this kind of fact, Paul, and it could definitely be preferred if you would stop ascribing positions and/or statements and/or reportage and/or motivations to me for which there is no foundation in reality. Thanks!

if in case you have opinions, and that i know you have got many many decent ones, consider free to share them. but I don't mainly appreciate your talking for either me, or for your assumptions about what you seem to presume to be my beliefs.

Tom Courbat appears to be a legitimate supply within the leisure of the story, so in case you couldn't attain Hursti no person would doubtless object in case you had quoted Tom Courbat on the HCPB audit requirement.

As mentioned, Tom advised me that it changed into he who had requested Hursti about that factor. The article as written above, however, became about Hursti's point of view (not Tom's) and what he idea was the choicest method for tabulating votes. right through my interview with Hursti, he made it rather clear that of the three familiar methods, DRE, op-scan or all HCPB, that his alternative for essentially the most relaxed and clear became op-scan (digitally imaged).

in case you or Tom would want to add extra counsel to that, you're welcome. as far as featuring an entire scheme for a Hursti Plan in action, it's something I could find irresistible to do quickly, but that was not what this article turned into about.

i'm hoping that clarifies and they will get on with discussing some thing aside from your unsupported implication that i am making an attempt to conceal something...or whatever the hell it is your implying.

beyond that, as far as i do know, Hursi has now not written any file or innovations for a complete plan of how to most appropriate tabulate American elections. So, for the moment, there is nothing to examine (as you suggest) earlier than both pointing out an opinion, or --- in this case --- reporting on what the hell he did and/or did not inform me about his opinions!

remark #20 [Permalink]... Brad Friedman observed on four/2/2007 @ 2:33 pm PT...

Laura (#18) said -

I believe Harry about now not sufficient individuals willing to HANDCOUNT the ballots(at the least that I could see).

To be clear, Hursti didn't say that not ample individuals had been willing or accessible to hand count number ballots. at the least to me.

That seems to had been a presumption that others have made right here in feedback surrounding Harri's factor that the complicated American system of democracy, with many candidates and propositions, and so on. on their ballots (going lower back, as he explained, to the early introduction of lever machines on the turn of the century to fight prices of paper ballot stuffing) didn't lend itself to full, precinct-based mostly hand-counting of ballots.

I can not bear in mind if they received into the special specifics as to his opinions on why that become notably.

remark #21 [Permalink]... Laura pointed out on 4/2/2007 @ 2:58 pm PT...

Thanks for the clarification Brad, and the reporting. i wouldn't know sh*t from shinola about this discipline w/o your remarkable and TENACIOUS reporting. sustain the extraordinary work!

remark #22 [Permalink]... Paper Chase observed on 4/2/2007 @ 2:59 pm PT...

can they all agree to get the vote lower back on paper ballots and ship the DREs to the scrapheap? Then they are able to talk about the superior approach to count them and how to get there from here. earlier than e-vote casting, Riverside County inspired a couple of cities and school districts to cling off-yr (odd numbered) elections for local races so the ballots for conventional elections would not be so lengthy and result in "voter fatigue." County officers decided the DRE allowed them to re-consolidate elections,which contributed to the VVPATs operating out of paper within the November '06 election. A return to off-yr elections for local races would make it viable for some elections to be absolutely hand counted and maybe ultimately all elections. It begins by boldly embracing a large step in the "write" route - a return to paper ballots!

comment #23 [Permalink]... J McCLoy spoke of on 4/2/2007 @ 3:10 pm PT...

we have heard how handy it's at hand count paper ballots. And, that is true, within the nations that do it. countries that hand count their elections constantly don't have any multiple, or two contests on the ballot.

here is greater about what hand counted paper ballots appear to be in different nations, and the way they do it:


always it's one contest. The ballot for the widespread elections in my state had bout 25 contests, with a couple of multi seat contests included. California and Washington state have even more contests now and then, on account of referendums and so on.

Proponents of HCPB could device some type of pollthat may also be extra effectively counted by means of hand to eye, I wont go into that.

comment #24 [Permalink]... ancient mentioned on four/2/2007 @ 3:13 pm PT...

perhaps on the next peace march individuals may be signed up for vote counting or vote count number coordinators. in the event that they march i am pretty certain they'd count, and you can bet the "different birthday party" would mobilize they may be troops to be there to counter balance those radicals counters!

comment #25 [Permalink]... ancient observed on four/2/2007 @ three:20 pm PT...

For that remember any group adventure may be used to beginning recruiting vote counters!

remark #26 [Permalink]... Mark Sununu spoke of on 4/2/2007 @ 3:31 pm PT...

Thanks Brad and thanks to Harry Hursti for advocating better and more comfy techniques.

Mark Sununu

remark #27 [Permalink]... phil referred to on 4/2/2007 @ 5:15 pm PT...

historic, I consider I argued during the past (somewhere on this giant internet) that "hand counter's" may still be chosen from the pool of registered voters. (until they have some horrid physical issue that stops them from it.) similar to JURY duty!

in any other case they will not be registered voters, in view that they don't agree with in their nation satisfactory to be in provider to it.

someone above cautioned on election day, asking voters to grasp around.

i might add to that, This will be the ultimate argument to creating election day a countrywide break day work.

a further theory, it will be over a few days time, despite the fact long it takes to get it completed. e.g. don't come to vote in case you would not have X hours of free time.)

then again the JURY duty formula. (that approach you recognize you have got enough bodies. And this isn't painful, a group of limits, I suggest who can handle being in a boring meeting over 20 minutes? So 20 minute breaks. Or some thing.)

And so far as the OP-SCAN's go. I do not definitely CARE if precincts use them, simply don't use them for a legally binding count. Use them for a backup, use them to put up the facts to the internet I do not basically supply a crap. just now not the precise count number.

And one remaining aspect, As they noticed form the CA-50, candidates may also be whisked away on a non-public jet and sworn in. this is crap. This can not be allowed, and if it is allowed, then a unique case of MANDITORY 100% HAND RECOUNT of PAPER and removing FROM workplace if critical.

where is the typical sense!?

We are not enemies right here. i am hoping they agree on that.Or else i am gone man, and this country which I swore an oath to, isn't any longer my nation, it be an digital DICTATORSHIP!

remark #28 [Permalink]... abacus said on 4/2/2007 @ 6:11 pm PT...

Re Brad #7 and Lehto #14

Tnx, Brad for responding.

“...the ballot images --- which have been scanned on the precinct --- would be posted online for the public to inspect on the web. They may count them themselves as they need, and that they can be compared to the precise paper ballots at any time.

"or not it's truly an incredibly transparent scheme, considering the fact that no public information requests or access can be required to determine the official count number in opposition t these posted ballot images. In idea, anyway.”

i am now not sure they have bought this completely lined...

This appears to claim that the ballots as posted on the information superhighway are the same because the ballots solid with the aid of the voters. but this nevertheless appears indefensible to me. What am I lacking?

Who would write the utility that converts paper ballots to information superhighway photos? and the way may it's reviewed by any one else? To make it public would be to invite the attention of evildoers. Would they another time be confronted with a situation where most effective totally-skilled consultants - no longer residents of distinct backgrounds and skills - might study the stuff? That’s now not transparency.

information superhighway transmission is a fair scarier proposition. cyber web transactions can also be subverted - have been subverted. Even the powerful cryptographic security touted on each web merchant’s home web page - just about all of which is in line with Rivest’s work - isn’t ample. Evildoers can penetrate it before transmission, or in transit.

And, in comparison to the conversion manner, cryptographic protection is even more ambitious. there is even less motive for subjecting it to scrutiny by means of citizens. not most effective wouldn't it provide evildoers a chance to study it; it should be basically advanced. Who but a very few would even be able to study such stuff, not to mention bear in mind it?

And this effortlessly is the contrary of transparency, isn’t it?

i'm additionally questioning who would sit down down to scan a whole bunch of pictures...

I keep in mind that one could go from an internet photo returned to a paper ballot to verify the procedure. however what clue would imply doing that? does not look good to do a random audit on an audit [:-) ??]

Btw, I suppose Lehto has raised critical questions about the prison validity of ‘ballots’ and the functional consequences of instituting strategies which can’t be invoked unless after the effects of an election were posted.

Two more aspects.

1. As some have suggested above, imho the jurors’ equipment model might work to gather residents for hand counts.

2. Hand count number works - for recounts, or for laptop-free elections. They had the mother of all hand counts within the remaining election for governor right here in Washington State. The election became performed with hand-marked paper ballots and opscan machines. [primarily; a small fraction was on DREs.] State-huge, Gregoire gained by means of about one hundred thirty votes after a hand recount of more than 2.8 million ballots. It was finally and wholly proven by way of the courts.

right here is the way it looked in King County, by which Seattle is determined.

We had 594,000 absentees’ ballots and 305,000 polling area ballots, about 900,000 total here.

—begin clips

My crew of three sorted and counted 5,544 votes all over a nine-hour shift. They agreed unanimously - the Republican, the Democrat and that i, the county worker - about who should still get each one of these votes.

each and every ballot was counted by way of the Republican appointee: McClellan, 21, a contemporary university of Washington grad who applied to be the Rossi family unit nanny and bought this job because her brother-in-legislation works for the campaign.

Then the same stacks were counted via the Democratic appointee: John Reese, 53, a Seattle seasoned-Palestinian activist who stated he turned into "approach left of liberal; I bet i might name myself a thorough."

They kept their counts secret and gave them to me. If the numbers matched, they stated the effects and resealed the box. if they differed, they started over. If the 2d counts nevertheless failed to agree, they had been advised to come the field to accept to a brand new team.

The equipment of assessments and double-checks didn't cease there. If their tallies for a precinct varied with the aid of even one vote from the machine recount, a different team would later reopen the container and count the complete precinct with the aid of hand again.

...With all of the fresh information about uncounted votes and ballots being present in the aspect pockets of precinct machines, I expected a slipshod operation. i was fully wrong.

i'm now satisfied that within the counting of votes, people are truly advanced to machines.

..."i am so impressed with this gadget," McClellan spoke of. "it's close inconceivable to corrupt, and it seems plenty extra delicate than a desktop count. all the criticisms I hear about what we're doing are incorrect."

Reese agreed. "I will not have lots religion within the American political system, however I actually have religion in what we're doing here," he stated. "i would put americans counting over computer counting any time."

...those critics who're blasting the guide recount on the face of it do not know what they may be talking about. comparable to former Gov. Dan Evans: "are you able to think about 300 newly employed, sick-educated, overworked individuals counting with the aid of hand with people searching over their shoulders and getting correct counts? or not it's ludicrous."

i will do greater than imagine it, governor. I saw it with my very own eyes.

end clips

Sources“Tedious hand recount starts,”Seattle post-intelligencer 12/9/04http://seattlepi.nwsourc...from=1&searchdiff=11

“Counter for a day finds few bugs in recount method”Seattle instances 12/18/04 Danny Westneathttp://seattletimes.nwso.../2002123626_danny18.htmlhttp://www.freerepublic....cus/f-information/1304053/posts

[D. Westneat is a very well-regarded long-time staffer for the Seattle Times.]

“decide upholds Gregoire's election; Rossi might not enchantment”Seattle put up-Intelligencer 6/6/05http://seattlepi.nwsourc...7307_judgerules06ww.html

comment #29 [Permalink]... Badger pointed out on four/2/2007 @ 6:forty five pm PT...

each time the concern of hand counting comes up, the complexity of their ballots becomes the fly within the ointment.

Is it possible to mandate for federal and state elections that consultant legislaltive positions develop into races that are hand counted most effective?

leave the different concerns of state and county management to the optical scan to count.

in spite of the fact that it skill setting apart the elections.

comment #30 [Permalink]... abacus stated on 4/2/2007 @ 9:37 pm PT...

IMHO Badger is on the appropriate route. Some will be aware that Kuchinich and others proposed ultimate yr that the presidential election be performed utterly with hand-counted paper ballots..

And preserving elections on two or greater days is yet another solution to take care of lengthy ballots...additionally, in some jurisdictions - I suppose in Massachusetts? - citizens opt for the chair of a board or govt entity however don't vote on candidates for all the seats. The chair appoints the individuals. If individuals misbehave the residents decide on a brand new chair subsequent time..

There are certainly many different problems - like getting adjustments through legislatures - but when a true effort became made solutions may appear...

comment #31 [Permalink]... Mark S stated on 4/2/2007 @ 9:fifty eight pm PT...

Bravo, Abacus!

Of path it can be carried out. Of course they can do it. Hand-counted paper ballots have under a 1% error expense. All different methods, including DREs, opscans, mechanical levers, and so on., have greater than a 5% error expense. You cannot tell me that a candidate won with the aid of a margin of three% in an election where votes had been counted on machines widespread to have a 5% (opscans) or 10% (mechanical) error fee, and predict me to consider it. until the margin of error is smaller than the margin of victory, there is no foundation to have faith an election.

in the case of Gregoire, the profitable margin appeared to be lower than 1%, so the simplest method it may be regularly occurring for definite become to have precisely the 100% hand-count that become carried out, with comprehensive transparency, full citizen oversight, and total checks and balances.

What can they know about balloting machines to this point? They comprehend that they aren't clear, are conveniently hacked, and infrequently can't be audited or can handiest be audited when it is too late for the audit to be helpful. So we're presupposed to spend a few billion on some new digital opscan machines? If the billionaires in Congress want these machines that badly, let them pay for them out of their own pockets instead of buying them with their difficult-earned tax cash. we'll pay for pencils, they will pay for paper, and we'll pay attractive salaries to pollworkers, but we're no longer buying to any extent further machines.

in keeping with their favorite los angeles-based mostly investigative reporter, their very own Brad Friedman, the laboratories that examine the machines don't seem to be approved, and that they on no account established for protection anyway. So any person who tries to accredit these machines is a crook. They do not meet the security necessities for use in elections. they are with ease opened, with ease hacked, and because of the wants of elections officers, there is not any appropriate chain of custody--most hacking can be completed through the insiders anyway, the desktop officers and the carriers' technicians, and that they have all the entry to the machines that they want--only the public does not.

Brad doesn't desire hand-counted paper ballots, so he says that Harri not ever outlined them. Had Brad asked about them, the field would have come up, so it's obtrusive that Brad by no means introduced it up. in case you don't ask the appropriate questions, you do not get the correct solutions.

there are many strategies for dealing with the multitude of decisions on their ballots. they will cling separate elections. they will print separate ballots for every race and every situation. Or they are able to use ballots designed to be right away and easily study via individuals. The complications in Florida 2000 which supplied the excuse for HAVA, like the butterfly-ballots and the putting chads have been as a result of the indisputable fact that the ballots had been designed to be read by using machines, now not via individuals. The answer isn't more machines, the reply is They the americans. If They the americans desire their votes to count number, They the individuals ought to count them. it be called democracy, bear in mind?

The corporatocracy that first sells and then rigs the voting machines should still now not be operating this country--it had its possibility and it ran it right into the ground. the place have their jobs gone? Why will they have the largest countrywide debt in heritage? And for all of the trillions that have long gone to the defense-industrial complicated, they not only cannot win a war towards individuals with a fraction of their funds, weaponry, and troops, they can't even deliver relevant fitness care for their wounded vets. Is that how patriots aid the troops?

I remember analyzing about some guy who went to vote and each time he selected his candidate, the machine lit up the other candidate's name. He acquired so mad he smashed the computing device in frustration. whereas I certainly wouldn't do anything else like that, and that i would not even dare to propose any one else to ruin property, i will be able to say that I empathized with him and applauded what he had executed. If they had greater residents like him, I think this country can be in a lot more desirable shape. I believe the guy turned into arrested, but I can not consider why. They paid for the machines, so do not they personal them? If my toaster or my television does not work, I have the right to trash them--why can not I do the same with my vote casting machine? ;-)

comment #32 [Permalink]... good day pointed out on 4/2/2007 @ 11:21 pm PT...

Geez, adequate of this nonsense. When is a vote no longer a vote? best true votes for precise contests? What's no longer critical? County Clerk? No? Superintendent of Public education? The individuals who opt for the textual content books? No? They get the "other vote"? What form of laws are you going to write to separate one "vote" from a further? How about a whole political birthday celebration surroundings tax costs and selective collections? it truly is been executed before. Ask a black man in Mississippi which contest is vital.

From the press-enterprise"Paper has its personal flaws. Paper has complications. however they are stronger organized to deal with those problems..."

"I basically trust the machines. i love them. it be the americans who provide guidance to machines I don't have confidence," Hursti stated.

He envisioned it should be three to 5 years earlier than producers get a hold of a computer wherein efforts to steal votes would be detected greater with ease than in latest techniques."

So, no computers for awhile, 4 elections in one year in CA starting in November and the Secretary of State ready to ban computer systems for ballot design and counting.The average age of the pollworkers hover close sixty five.

OH...and incidentally, the Sentinel changed into talking about the genuine hand counted audits completed and both separate recounts accomplished by means of Santa Cruz County within the open with observers and matched the electronic totals one hundred%.

I may be a shill/troll, but at the least I don't need to spin a story to in shape a predeteremined concept. might be sticking to the statistics is horrifying satisfactory. It appears any and all editorials or statements expressing assist of elections officers are poison to Mr. Friedman.

comment #33 [Permalink]... Brad Friedman referred to on 4/3/2007 @ 2:04 am PT...

Abacus (#29) noted:

Who would write the application that converts paper ballots to cyber web pictures? and the way could or not it's reviewed by anyone else? To make it public can be to ask the attention of evildoers. Would they all over again be confronted with a situation the place only incredibly-knowledgeable certified - not residents of different backgrounds and abilities - may examine the stuff? That’s no longer transparency.

The software the converts paper ballots to photographs already exists in the digital photo op-scanners themselves. importing them from the county headquarters to their internet server for public viewing is rather rudimentary.

I guess I pass over the part the place any of that requires certified or attracts evil doers, but i am happy to have it explained to me if you need to.

information superhighway transmission is an excellent scarier proposition. internet transactions can also be subverted - had been subverted.

be aware, you're no longer speakme about sending effects by way of the cyber web (which is insane, however executed all the time at this time). The tabulation manner is completely contained and break away this scheme, as I have in mind it. The posting of those photographs to the web is with no trouble a verify and balance. corresponding to a public statistics request you may make to move down and check the ballots. however in this case, the whole world gets to verify them for any anomolies and for accuracy, etc. by way of the internet if they desire.

And, in comparison to the conversion method, cryptographic protection is even more ambitious. there's even less intent for subjecting it to scrutiny via residents.

The cryptocrap bullshit being forwarded through Rivest and others is exactly that, rubbish. Even stipulating that or not it's the most comfy factor in the world (not a secure stipulation, however just for arguments sake), there is even much less transparency in it than the current DRE crap accessible these days. it's insane. but the energy PFAW folks are pushing it on Congress, and Congress is purchasing into it.

Your time spent complaining about that might be more advantageous spent deciding on up the mobile and bitching to every Congress member you can about it!

Mark S (#31) spoke of:

Brad doesn't need hand-counted paper ballots, so he says that Harri on no account outlined them. Had Brad asked about them, the subject would have come up, so it is glaring that Brad under no circumstances brought it up. in case you do not ask the correct questions, you do not get the correct answers.

it's a crazy element, Mark, however on the grounds that i used to be there with Hursti for approximately 6 hours --- and so far as i noticed, you weren't --- I actually understand what I brought up and what I did not. And, as outlined in the article above, a type of issues was hand-counted paper ballots.

Did I ask him about Nancy Tobi's recommendation that a single race be hand counted at each and every precinct as Paul Lehto has raised? And charged me with someway now not telling folks about? No. as a result of I knew nothing concerning the recommendation, in any other case, i would had been more than chuffed to each get Hursti's opinion on it and report it to you.

And, as mentioned, Hursti under no circumstances brought it up, regardless of their special discussions of HCPB considerations.

Your can charge that "Brad does not want hand-counted paper ballots" is as silly and unsupported as your assertion about what I did and failed to ask Harri about.

if you have not noticed, i've been combating to put off DREs, so folks like your self can actually have paper ballots to count number by way of hand within the first region in case you can get your native jurisdictions to comply with it!

severely...If one of the most ardent all-HCPB individuals have been as smart about deciding who their allies are --- and what is necessary to accomplish the ends they hope for --- as they are about what they think is needed for a valid democracy, then the fight for all HCPB would probably be a helluva lot farther alongside than it presently is.

in case you have not figured that out by way of now (as Mark's word would point out) then possibly my assessment of how smart you're about what a legit democracy requires has been untimely.


comment #34 [Permalink]... Tom Courbat pointed out on four/3/2007 @ 7:31 am PT...

well, i'm amazed at all the hoopla that has arisen within the final 24 hours. i've been out of pocket, and simply now have an opportunity to make just a few comments.

#1 Harri and i spent several hours speakme about a number of things on Thursday evening prior to the Blue Ribbon Elections overview Committee (ERC) assembly on Friday morning (three/30). The discussion of the random selection of one race (contest) to be one hundred% hand-counted at each precinct (given that it will be a random drawing at each precinct, the competition to be hand-counted would differ from precinct to precinct) earlier than release of outcomes become short. They didn't have an in-depth dialogue of exactly how it would work, nor changed into it the simple focus of their conversations. He agreed that it gave the impression of an outstanding theory, however i would ought to say he changed into by no means pronouncing it to be the "end all and be all" answer to anything else.

This became a quick "thought" dialogue. i am not stunned it did not come up in his subsequent discussions with Brad the subsequent night, because it was certainly one of many, many issues discussed. no longer to claim it isn't very critical as one aspect of an typical strategy, simply to say it wasn't the highlight of every little thing.

#2 Personnel for one hundred% HCPB - I even have an awful lot to learn about this and freely admit it. I actually have spoken with Nancy Tobi at length, on multiple event about this. She may also neatly be one of the crucial skilled and knowledgeable folks on this subject in the U.S. What I concluded from her is that it takes a lot of people to do it right and do it correctly (so outcomes are not unduly delayed). I additionally learned that in NH they have an abundance of folks inclined to participate during this method, partly as a result of having executed it for thus lengthy, and partly as a result of her and others' efforts to set up this over a length of decades.

In Riverside County, while not not possible to tug off, it would take a big recruiting effort to do a hundred% HCPB counts in all 605 precincts. could they do it? yes. could they do it for the November 2008 election - yes, if there changed into a monumental recruiting effort, training program, and cooperation and settlement by the county ROV. Realisticlly I don't see that going on within the subsequent 19 months right here in RivCo.

#three Absentee voter (AV) pollissues - as I mentioned prior to now, here's a big situation and that i don't believe outfitted to contend with it meaningfully instant. Harri and i mentioned the proven fact that he sees this as the weakest hyperlink in the chain (of custody) of their vote casting gadget, and i agree fully. It wasn't such a huge deal when 10% voted by the use of AV ballots. Now, with almost 50% or more voting that means in some elections in RivCo, it is an important issue.

I suppose art Cassel's embryonic introduction of a likely approach is a fine starting element. They deserve to have a separate thread to focus on AV issues. right now the USPS is doing every little thing they could to aid in getting final-minute mailed ballots delivered - in their case - to the precincts and the vital count building - by means of making special deliveries on Election Day. i am impressed at their going out of their strategy to work with the RoV to get the ballots delivered in time to be sure they qualify to matter.

however that doesn't contend with the considerations of chain of custody, and again, this complete theme wants a separate thread. the bulk of what they now have been discussing has been precinct-based mostly balloting and counting. Please don't conclude from this that i am giving brief-shrift to AV ballot issues - i'm not.

#four Statistical validity of pulling one contest at a precinct and doing a one hundred% hand count on that contest earlier than releasing any consequences. It appears that i'll have misunderstood the statistical validity or lack thereof of such a technique. I have taken a few statistical classes many a long time ago in school, but have lengthy on the grounds that forgotten much more than I remember. My aim in suggesting this formulation became to get some dialog going (which it definitely did) with the goal of getting contract on what they could do to check on the accuracy of the scanner count number IF they put scanners (simplest digital photograph optical scan or DIOS-class) in the precincts. I go away to the consultants to get a hold of a "appropriate" validation method that isn't so labor-intensive that it can't be finished by means of an inexpensive quantity of individuals in a reasonable period of time on the precincts (be aware house can also be an argument too - some precincts are fairly darned small).

i want to enchantment to the EI neighborhood to remain focused on the purpose - felony, accurate, verifiable and clear elections that voters can have faith in. They should not be taking pot-pictures at each other, or implying nefarious factors. That kind of interplay will cause us to self-destruct and they will ill have the funds for that.

Let's retain their dialog civil and problem-focused. we've a very short time to achieve some very laudable goals.

remark #35 [Permalink]... massive dan spoke of on 4/3/2007 @ 12:56 pm PT...

greater americans mandatory for hand counts? it really is outstanding! The more individuals will take part! I feel this is bogus, saying there's now not ample people for a hand count. Make it a civic obligation, like jury duty. You do not suppose counting the votes is that critical?

those that say, "We would not have ample time", or "there may be now not adequate people to count"...I believe it truly is a bunch of baloney!!! at the least, provide me a great excuse! I do not purchase those excuses!

remark #36 [Permalink]... Larry Bergan mentioned on four/three/2007 @ 2:18 pm PT...

exactly massive Dan, what did american citizens do earlier than the introduction of ANY class of laptop to count number votes. things have not modified THAT a great deal within the electoral device.

Has the correct wing dumbed down science so a whole lot that they do not know a way to count number from now on?

remark #37 [Permalink]... huge dan observed on 4/3/2007 @ 7:fifty five pm PT...

I, for one, would in fact volunteer every election, to hand count paper ballots. i'd take a vacation day, if I needed to.

remark #38 [Permalink]... big dan spoke of on 4/three/2007 @ 7:56 pm PT...

...and there could be greater transparency to the voters, if greater individuals had been concerned in the counting. at the moment? Secret counts with the aid of "have faith us" officers, and we're now not ALLOWED to look!!!

remark #39 [Permalink]... Larry Bergan talked about on 4/three/2007 @ 10:19 pm PT...

Election day should still be a sacred day that each person receives off work for. if you are no longer taking part you'll want to be watching.

remark #40 [Permalink]... Mark S mentioned on 4/3/2007 @ eleven:50 pm PT...

Tom Courbat #34 wrote:

"In Riverside County, while not not possible to tug off, it could take an immense recruiting effort to do 100% HCPB counts in all 605 precincts. may they do it? yes. may they do it for the November 2008 election - sure, if there become a enormous recruiting effort, practicing software, and cooperation and contract by the county ROV. Realisticlly I do not see that occurring in the subsequent 19 months right here in RivCo."

Or here in San Diego, or in lots of other areas. And time keeps on slip-sliding away.

what is in their desire is that the machines at the moment in use are not certifiable. (The people who bought them could be certifiable, within the feel of certifiably insane, however it is yet another story.) So in fact, if they can comfortably withstand buying the brand new DIOS machines, they would have the billions that could be spent for them to spend on recruiting and practising pollworkers to do handcounts.

As for the mail-ins, they really do want one more thread on that one. right here's George Galloway:

Brad, i'm no longer claiming to be very smart. i am no longer a techie and i'm no longer in love with machines. What I do have is a few experience within the area and the instructions that taught me are ones of standard feel:

1. once there is a secret vote count, it's essentially unimaginable for citizens to exchange the effect of an election with the aid of without difficulty (ha!) proving fraud.

2. Some elections officers and courts, like Ken Blackwell, Katherine Harris, and the Supreme court in Florida 2000, don't care about how the americans vote and may do some thing they can to thwart the will of the people and install their personal favorites.

three. Any elections technique that is not utterly clear and overseen by citizens, is an opportunity for fraud that will be taken abilities of by crooks.

four. If they want honest elections, they need to cease considering in terms of what's purposeful, applicable to politicians, or effortless, and start thinking when it comes to what is appropriate. occasionally doing the appropriate factor is impractical, unacceptable, and inconvenient. So what? Does that suggest they may still do the inaccurate aspect or do nothing at all?

the two primary parties have a stranglehold on elections in this country. The Republicans, I agree with, are evil. They desire warfare crimes and torture. The Democrats, individually, are much less evil, as they don't choose war crimes and torture, they simply want the battle crimes and torture to proceed with a purpose to use the situation to steer individuals to supply them funds and vote for them in '08.

HCPB by myself might not resolve anything. They should impeach Bush & Cheney, get rid of the Supreme court majority in Bush v. Gore for dangerous behavior, abolish the electoral faculty, undo Tom lengthen-style redistricting, get publicly-funded elections in order that people who don't seem to be millionaires can have ballot entry, fix the equity Doctrine in order that all candidates can get media coverage, institute ranked-alternative voting, trade the suggestions so that they can have proportional representation, implement the vote casting Rights Act so that they can cease illegal disenfranchisement, get rid of companies from involvement in politics, and plenty, lots more earlier than they would have anything else that might call itself a democracy with out inflicting the area to snort.

I heard Brian Willson communicate the other night. he is the man who lay down on the railroad tracks to are trying to stop an illegal cargo of palms to the Contras and lost each his legs when the coach deliberately ran him over. he's a extremely inspiring speaker, but even more inspiring than his phrases become the proven fact that he wore shorts so that all and sundry may see his prostheses. That makes a statement. It says in case you comprehend some thing is incorrect and also you want to stop it, you cannot simply focus on it--you have to do something to try to cease it, however it kills you. no longer simply write letters or raise protest signs, but lie down in entrance of the damned train. He in no way spoke of that, but he didn't need to. What he did say turned into that he's a pupil of historical past and has discovered that this country in no way changed into a democracy. So if they desire it to be a democracy, they have to stop believing the myth that it already is.

a lot of people are panic about world warming and pollutants. however appear around you and you will see that given a choice between clear air and their cars, most individuals decide upon their vehicles. sure, they could not get to work devoid of their automobiles, however do they in reality consider that they and their children can live to tell the tale for long with out clean air? Willson noted that we're addicted to oil, hooked on conflict, and that addiction isn't whatever thing susceptible to purpose.

Willson's speak gave me a whole lot to believe about. Their way of life is dependent upon using a lot greater of the area's resources than warranted, and they obtain those elements via armed forces drive. So I guess the millionaires in Congress maintain vote casting for battle crimes because there is no wrong way to keep their lifestyles and the life of their materials. It jogs my memory of some vegetarians who imply that if they had to individually kill the animals they consume, they could feel otherwise about it. If they needed to in my view kill the terrible individuals in different countries who ought to die so that they will keep their extravagant tradition, would they believe differently about it? perhaps they desire rigged elections, so that they can say that it isn't their fault, it's the fault of unelected politicians. All i do know for certain is that the teach is never going to cease, no matter if they lie down in entrance of it or not. And that if they need a more robust world, they need to do it anyway.

comment #forty one [Permalink]... Brad Friedman noted on 4/four/2007 @ 12:52 am PT...

Mark S -

Your opinions and innovations on all of the above are great. the place I took exception to your feedback changed into the place you made a demonstrably improper and unsubstantiated statement:

Brad does not desire hand-counted paper ballots, so he says that Harri never mentioned them. Had Brad asked about them, the field would have come up, so it's evident that Brad on no account brought it up. in case you don't ask the right questions, you do not get the appropriate solutions.

It changed into both out of line and completely untrue from right to bottom.

beyond that, i could respond only to this graf for your latest remark above:

4. If they need sincere elections, they must stop pondering in terms of what is practical, applicable to politicians, or handy, and start pondering when it comes to what's correct. on occasion doing the appropriate thing is impractical, unacceptable, and inconvenient. So what? Does that imply they may still do the wrong aspect or do nothing at all?

I admire your thinking, and all that you're doing to fight for your beliefs.

That pointed out, i would caution that "every now and then doing the appropriate thing" comes in incremental steps. as an instance, if they fight to ban DREs, every person can combat for hand-counted paper ballots if it truly is what they want at the polls all throughout the nation.

if you wouldn't have paper ballots within the first region, you cannot count them. Nothing in the Holt bill requires an optical-scan count (and if it did, i might fight equally hard in opposition t it). definitely, i used to be the one who made sure to add definite language about counting via hand to the bill, so it couldn't get shut out!

comfortably because "the correct thing", as you see it, isn't obtainable in one clean silver bullet, it does not make other efforts that stream your towards that "right factor" into the "wrong component".

And as I've stated again and again, in case you stepped returned, took a breath and checked out that, you may accept as true with me, and join the combat of the moment to hang back the deafening tide that is about to brush DREs throughout the panorama except they cling, as a minimum, that a part of it lower back.

That combat, naturally, is difficult sufficient for the moment, and could use your help and energy to help it, instead of reduce the knees out from below it, and get the WORST of all worlds (which is where we're at the moment headed!)

comment #forty two [Permalink]... Barbara Bellows-TerraNova talked about on four/four/2007 @ four:24 am PT...

YoooooooHoooooooo --

From out here in Utah, what about Bruce Funk? Brad, please bear in mind, in case you talk about Harri Hursti, that it was Bruce, right here in Emery County, who became the catalyst for Hursti's first primary report, launched may also eleven, 2006.And Bruce Funk turned into run out of workplace for his diligence.

be aware this from my article in the June subject of Catalyst journal:

The time has come, Democracy pointed out, to speak of many things:Of Diebold, Funk, Ohio’s Ney,Of Abramoff purchasing kings–And why HAVA can't depend–since the warnings that Hursti brings.

ok, no more beating around the Bush – this week Utah’s Emery County Clerk, Bruce Funk, is redeemed.

in all probability you’ve heard of him. His March 23rd announcement that he would no longer use the Diebold balloting machines Lt. Governor Herbert sent him caused an emergency closed-door meeting on March 27th with Diebold, the Emery County Commissioners and information, and Michael Cragun, Elections professional from Lt. Governor Herbert’s workplace – however not Funk.

When the doors were finally opened, Funk was advised to use the Diebold machines. Unwilling to accept accountability for his or her security, he threw it lower back on the Commissioners, who later insisted that changed into his resignation.

This all took place after March 18, when posted an preliminary impartial comparison of Diebold's TSx via Harri Hursti, Finnish computing device security expert, and security Innovation (advisor to Symantec, McAfee and Microsoft). The comparison changed into in accordance with their examination of two of Emery County's 40 machines, at Funk's request. The informal document referred to clumsy outward issues, such as crooked, sick-fitting elements, then brought up more suspicious modifications in purchasable reminiscence. however turned into the forewarning of three "critical safety holes... no longer programming mistakes, however architectural design selections" indicating that the usage of the Diebold machines may well be "potentially catastrophic" that definitely raised Diebold's hackles.

Claiming that Funk had voided the warranty on the forty machines via allowing impartial events to have access to them, Diebold slapped a $forty,000 pleasant on Emery County.

Yet Cragun stated none of this on April 19 before the State govt Operations interim Committee, the place he up-to-date the legislature concerning the voting laptop implementation, with Bruce Funk seated local.

On may additionally eleven, the "Diebold TSx contrast, safety ALERT" from Hursti/ security Innovation was forwarded to the department of native land protection, the U.S. Election advice commission and Diebold, then released publicly on-line*, detailing "a couple of lower back doorways" into a three-layer application constitution that can "conceal the infection very with ease... to penetrate, adjust and make every thing seem standard," overwriting "and for this reason harmful for future forensic stories."

on the end of this momentous file, Harri Hursti respectfully acknowledges Bruce Funk: "The citizenry owes a massive debt of gratitude to Bruce Funk...".

Yet, Bruce's name has nevertheless no longer been publicly cleared right here in Utah, and his compelled retirement under no circumstances reversed or recognized for what it changed into.

Bruce should still now not be forgotten, just as a result of Utah's dominant way of life is so beholden to authority figures. (Hell, Brigham younger institution is really having Dick Cheney talk at graduation - Yuk!)

Come on, Brad, Bruce's name belongs correct up there with Ion Sanchez when it comes to Harri.

past the above --- Hursti's look before the panel and the media deserves a superb celebration - and love that graphic of you two!

remark #forty three [Permalink]... Brad Friedman noted on 4/4/2007 @ 12:58 pm PT...

Barbara Bellows TerraNova "yoohooed" with:

From out right here in Utah, what about Bruce Funk? Brad, please remember, for those who talk about Harri Hursti, that it was Bruce, right here in Emery County, who was the catalyst for Hursti's first primary document, launched may also eleven, 2006. And Bruce Funk became run out of office for his diligence.

I certainly not neglect Bruce! The only cause he did not come up listed here is because of the focus on Hursti getting used via the Holt supporters to exhibit how "op-scan is as dangerous as DRE, so they should permit them each".

For the list (and for what it's price) the Emery County document got here after the Leon County hack, even though you say above that it became "the first". no longer that it makes a good deal of a diff.

One element that does make a diff, besides the fact that children, is that you just element to BlackBoxVoting.COM on your report, instead of BlackBoxVoting.ORG. those are two distinctive businesses and it became the .ORG that worked with Funk and Hursti in each Utah and Florida, no longer the .COM community.

just FYI.

comment #forty four [Permalink]... Barbara Bellows-TerraNova said on four/four/2007 @ 2:24 pm PT...


OOOps. For the com-not-org. I actually understand superior.

As for "first", i was regarding the doc, not the look at various. I neatly remember the December 13 2005 hack in Leon County, with the coincidentally simultaneous abrupt resignation of Diebold CEO/Chair Wally "deliver-Ohio" O'Dell.

but that might also eleven, 2006 "Diebold TSx assessment / safety ALERT" become, for me, the first/optimal/clearest document to share to show the point, once and for all.

Anyway, Hursti's re-appearance, specifically as you describe him, is extraordinarily enjoyable. what is the estimate on when your interview might be obtainable?

remark #forty five [Permalink]... Larry Bergan talked about on four/4/2007 @ 10:fifty nine pm PT...

Brad makes a great factor about nevertheless being able to get a hand count number if they simplest push for a DRE ban, however damn, I hate to peer these awful voting laptop organizations get any further money!

remark #46 [Permalink]... abacus spoke of on 4/6/2007 @ 1:34 pm PT...

Brad #33

This sub-thread seems to have gotten a little bit tangled - might be partly my fault.

In outline:

The system: Voter votes by means of hand-marked ballot; pollgoes to opscan machine / crucial tabulator. Machines builds file of votes. Machines publish the file on the internet. So anyone involved can overview the entire votes. There is not any identification of particular person voters in the file.

The conception is that this constitutes “transparency.” It does, in a single sense. anybody can indeed evaluation the posting. but this isn’t true transparency; or, in case you like, it’s a form of transparency subject to subversion.

The software that procedures the file and posts it on the information superhighway is part of the machines’ full software suites. [I didn’t know this; Brad pointed it out. I thought it would have to be created especially for this purpose.]

but computer application is not discipline to evaluate. And in spite of the fact that it have been, it's not going that misguided or subversive code could/can be discovered.

So it could have malicious components. citizens haven't any oversight, need to have confidence makers or specialists. no longer really clear.

The dialogue of cryptography issues the transmission of effects from polling areas to central tabulators. Brad: “...insane, however carried out all the time at the moment.” The transmission is susceptible. So some will say: neatly, we’ll encrypt them.

with the aid of their nature crypto methods have the same drawbacks as laptop code however more so. an extra set of “have confidence me” techniques, lacking in transparency.

I raised the element handiest as a warning. this will all get sorted out, little question, if the thought goes ahead. however there are different methods with cryptographic components. No transparency. Pardon the paranoia however an evildoer might even suggest cryptosecurity with the conception of then twisting it to personal purposes. And, finally, even robust cryptography can be penetrated with sufficient laptop energy.

BTW, Rivest foresaw a few of this. I’ll submit more

remark #forty seven [Permalink]... abacus stated on 4/6/2007 @ 5:forty one pm PT...

Brad #33

“The cryptocrap bullshit being forwarded through Rivest and others is exactly that, rubbish. Even stipulating that it be essentially the most cozy aspect on the earth (now not a secure stipulation, however only for arguments sake), there's even less transparency in it than the latest DRE crap obtainable today. it's insane. however the vigor PFAW folks are pushing it on Congress, and Congress is buying into it.”

“The cryptocrap bullshit being forwarded by Rivest and others is exactly that, rubbish.” I haven’t run across whatever thing Brad is regarding right here. however I’m way ahead of Brad in my revulsion with cryptography in election techniques. it's the height of opacity. And beyond query; any crypto equipment can be penetrated with ample vigor. I even pointed to this in my first put up

Now it occurs that Rivest has been working on election programs when you consider that about 1997 as a minimum. He appeared before a condominium Committee on 5/24/01. among the facets he made:

“2) I trust that they should still use the internet to put up:a lists of registered votersb checklist of genuine votersc listing of specific ballots forged (now not matched with voter's names, of course)”

“four) I accept as true with voting programs should still have a genuine audit path.That audit path should be directly created through the voter, or at least be at once verifiable by means of the voter when he casts his vote.It need not be paper, but should be immutable and archival.”

Rivest may additionally no longer be your favorite laptop scientist however he's actually some of the most respected in the video game. [Btw he published a piece on audit design just recently that makes excellent sense.]

Which isn't to claim that he not ever made a mistake. might be Brad has noticed one. but Rivest does not write crap; if he’s wrong you’ll be able to see, rather obviously, the place.

Testimony given earlier than the U.S. condo Committee on Administration, may 24, 2001. additionally-24-01-testimony.txt

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